Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

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Sergio Fisch
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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#1 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 12:22

Hi. I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina. My paternal grandfather was Iosif Fisch (1896, Kherson, Ukraine - 1978, Buenos Aires). In his german passport he figures as "Joseph Fisch". He came from Hamburg, on a ship of the shipping company HAPAG (which was German): the König Wilhelm II. Iosif came to my country in January 1914, just before the First World War. In the CEMLA records (Center for Latin American Migration Studies) the following is said:

Name: Joseph Fisch;
Profession: farmer, field laborer;
Religion: Hebrew;
Nationality: Russian;
Age: 18.

But in the famous list titled "Hamburg Passenger Lists 1850-1934" one more piece of information is added:

Residence: Dobroge.

After investigating the case, I discovered that "Dobroge" is one of the Kherson's colonies: Dobre [Ukr], Dobroye [Rus], Dobriya [Yid], Dobroe, Dobra, Dobraya, Dobroje, Dobrinka, Добре, Доброе. Coordinates: 47°19'N 32°27'E.

Everything encases, because my grandfather always said that he was from Kherson, south of Ukraine.

Well... Before that, he had tried to travel to New York. He dreamed of studying at Harvard. He couldn't, because during the trip he suffered an infection in the eyes, and then the doctor on board told him:

"In New York's port you won't be admitted due to the harsh prophylactic measures adopted by the american government to prevent epidemics. You must go home or go somewhere else. Sorry."

Near Cherbourg, the HAPAG company offered my grandfather to divert him to South America, where he had family (as he told them). This family was that of his maternal uncle Fischel Svetlitza, about whom I will speak later.

That was at the end of 1913. December, maybe. Iosif was 17 or 18 years old. He traveled alone, without friends or anyone. And he was poor. Among his few belongings there was a feather cushion that his mother had given him (surely she made it when was pregnant; see below).

Parenthesis: What did my grandfather want to study at Harvard? In Ukraine he had studied for rabbi, in some yeshiva of Kherson. He knew the Torah thoroughly, he had memorized it letter by letter, and as a major he became known as an "encyclopedia with legs". At Harvard he carried a letter of recommendation, lost today.

When my grandfather was Argentine nationalized, he adopted the name "José", and since then he was always José Fisch.

His father was Oser Fisch, who died in Kherson in 1917, eight months before the Revolution.

His mother was Nesia Svetlitza (Светлица). She died when Iosif was a child, before 1900.

After the death of Nesia, Oser Fisch remarried, but I don't know the name of his second wife. With her he had more children: Two boys and one girl.

My grandfather's half-sister was a doctor and died of cancer. During Stalin's time, José Fisch exchanged letters and photos with her. She told him that another half-brother was in a wheelchair after fighting in the Russian army. I saw a photo of that man: A Yul Brynner's look (the actor).

Oser Fisch and his second wife died of cold and hunger, in the most complete inclemency. Eight months before the Revolution, approximately. I will explain why briefly.

Oser had a farm, in some Jewish settlement in Jershon. Maybe Dobroye, maybe Efingar, maybe Novopoltavka; I dont know. (In Nikolaiev, around 1900, I detected a Fisch clan. Family?) To pay the trip to his son Iosif, Oser Fisch had to sell a cow and some more. All legal. My grandfather did not flee from the Ukraine, but traveled to America with papers in order. And since everything was legal, the Russian authorities learned about the case and wanted to make sure that everything was done according to the official protocol. The authorities said: "Your son can't leave Russia because he must do military service. Sorry for my Yiddish." Oser replied: "He only travels to New York for a short time. He'll be back soon. Sorry for my Russian." Authorities: "Oh, yes? Then you sign here, in this paper. By signing here, you agree to keep your word. All its properties remain in pledge. If your son does not return to fight in the army, you will pay us."

Oser swallowed and signed.

And since José never came home, his father lost everything. Everything. To make matters worse, it was cold and the neighbors were not exactly rich. After that, the Revolution broke out and the Tsar was decapitated by the bolsheviks. Divine justice?

Sorry my English, of course.

Now I will talk about Nesia, my paternal great-grandmother. Her only son was José. She bore him in 1896, in Kherson, and died soon after. It's possible that "Nesia" was a nickname. Her real name would have been Nechama or Natasha. My father is named Natalio in honor of her, his grandmother, but there is a detail to keep in mind: My father's first name was Nachum (or something like that). He was born here, in Buenos Aires, in 1936, and at that time the Argentine civil registry did not accept foreign names. Then his parents read the list of allowed names and chose "Natalio". That's why it was always said (in my family) that his grandmother was "Natasha". But I doubt it! If I stick to the logic of the anecdote, she should have been called Nechuma or something like that. Nechama, maybe? In the Pale, the Nechamas were nicknamed Neshe, Nessia, Nesse, etc.

Anyway, I know that "Nesia" is a name in itself. A very beautiful name; it means Miracle of God. If I'm wrong, correct me.

In a document lost today (for a change), she appears as "Nesce Swetlitza". Swetlitza: This is how the Germans transliterate the Russian word Светлица. I know because I investigated.

But Nesia was not of German origin, but Lithuanian (possibly). In my family that was always said, although without conviction. A significant detail: The Dobroye colony was divided into two sectors. A Polish part. The other, Lithuanian. So it's possible that Nesia's family was from Dobroye, y and that in fact my grandfather was born there.

(Speak of the devil: In the list of settlers of Dobroye (in JewishGen) a "Moshe Fish" appears. My grandfather's uncle?)

A brother of Nesia, named Fischel Svetlitza, came to my country in 1894, as a JCA's settler. The next post will be centered on him. For now I will just say that he was born in 1857, he was from Efingar (Plyushchevka), he died in Colonia Lucienville in 1945 and his wife was called Ita Chana Shraibman (1858-?).

Hasta la vista, baby.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#2 Сообщение oztech » 04 июн 2018, 12:53

Рыба в Вашей подписи только сбивает с толку, должно быть FISCH (Фиш).

Рыба in Your signature is only confusing, it has to be FISCH (Фиш).
Григорий

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#3 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 13:43

It is a delicate matter. My grandfather always said that his last name was written like this: Fisch. Neither Fish nor Fisz, much less Fisher or Fischman. Fisch. I don't know how the Russian authorities wrote it at the time of the Empire.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#4 Сообщение lavaS » 04 июн 2018, 14:00

Sergio Fisch, The combination of letters "sz" in Polish is the letter "sh". As Grigory said, it's better to write "Фиш" (FISCH )
Кригер, (Петербургская губ.), Коловский(Новгородская губ.),Ерухомович(Тверская губ.), Камензон (Виленская губ.), Долинко(Минская губ.), Лехерзак(Витебская губ.)

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#5 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 14:14

I already corrected my signature! We'll see if I'm lucky. Thanks to both.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#6 Сообщение recutita » 04 июн 2018, 14:43

Just come across a death record - Dasel' Svetlitsa (Дасель Светлица) daughter of Iosif passed away at the age of 1 year 3 months of pneumoniaon January 5, 1920 in Nikolaev. Her father's palce of registration isn't mentioned.
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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine

#7 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 14:53

recutita: Thank you. Yes, in Nikolaev I have detected a Khanina Svetlitza, aka Janine. Almost all of his children came to my country at the beginning of the last century. Janine had a bazaar in that city, when Nikolayev was part of Kherson. One of her daughters, Ruchel (born in Novopoltavka), looked a little like my brother Pablo (today in Israel). So it is no wonder that there is more Svetlitsas in Nikolaiev.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#8 Сообщение recutita » 04 июн 2018, 15:21

Kherson and Nikolaev are absolutely different towns and always were. Nikolaev used to be part of Kherson Gubernia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorate_(Russia)

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#9 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 15:38

It seems a lie, but I'm right.

Kherson Governorate 1821

Before WWI, Nikolaiev was in the province of Kherson:
https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-1047257

Kherson was shrinking with time. At one time it was so large that it even included Odessa.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#10 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 15:45

Do not confuse the city of Kherson (the port) with the region. The region was changing borders. It became huge!

In +-1900, Kherson included these cities: Odessa, Kirovohrad, Kherson (port), Nikolaiev, Tiraspol (Moldova!!!), Krivoy Rog, Novopoltavka, Plyushchivka, Ingulets, Dobroye, Efingar, Aleksandriya, Nova Odessa, and a long etcetera... At that time my grandfather was born.

Source: https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/jgcd.php?get=y&prov1900=Kherson
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#11 Сообщение anno_nin » 04 июн 2018, 16:02

Sergio Fisch писал(а):Источник цитаты Kherson included these cities

Not Kherson, but Kherson district. You can ask to fix the error in Jewishgen :)


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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#13 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 18:43

FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#14 Сообщение Helen V. » 04 июн 2018, 19:33

Do you think about DNA-test?
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История - "Е.П.Пешкова. Помощь политическим заключенным" ф.8409 ГА РФ

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#15 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 19:44

Helen V. писал(а):Источник цитаты Do you think about DNA-test?


The idea is good, but I can't pay for that service. But someday, maybe... Here in my country neoliberalism is leading us to ... Well, let's leave it. :unknown:
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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#16 Сообщение MOCKBA » 04 июн 2018, 20:58

Hola Sergio,
Just to clarify some (not too important) details. Harvard university didn't accept Jews until much later (1960?). The penalty needed to be paid by the parents when their son didn't show up for the draft board was 500 rubles.
Гоникберг (Могилев-Подольский, Ушицкий уезд, и повсюду), Прусс, Черницкий(Городок Витебской), Пальман (Витебск), Богин, Рудерман (Минск), Лапицкий (Копысь, Киев)

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#17 Сообщение Sergio Fisch » 04 июн 2018, 22:03

MOCKBA писал(а):Источник цитаты Hola Sergio,
Just to clarify some (not too important) details. Harvard university didn't accept Jews until much later (1960?). The penalty needed to be paid by the parents when their son didn't show up for the draft board was 500 rubles.


I don't think my grandfather (a simple 17-year-old farmer) knew what he was doing. Surely Harvard would have laughed at him and his letter of recommendation. And I don't think that Oser has been able to raise that sum of money in all his life. In fact, one of his main possessions was the cow he sold to pay for the trip.

I believe in that family anecdote, because my uncle Oscar Fisch did a master's degree at Harvard more than anything to fulfill his father's dream.

http://www.lehman.edu/academics/economics-business/faculty-fisch.php

My uncle is named Oscar in honor of Oser Fisch. (The etymology of both names differs, but that did not matter.)

But what Oser and my grandfather knew well was that the Jews couldn't go to university in Czarist Russia. They should convert or stay at home.
FISCH (Фиш) & SVETLITZA (Светлица) - Efingar (Плющевка), Kherson (Херсон), Dobroye (Доброе / Добрая), Odessa (Одесса), Mykolayiv (Николаев), Novopoltavka (Новополтавка). 1850-1917. Sztark (Штарк), Felzner (Фельзнер) & Klasner (Класнер) (Silesia, 1800-1925).

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Oser Fisch & Nesia Svetlitza, from Kherson, Ukraine / ФИШ, СВЕТЛИЦА (Херсон)

#18 Сообщение MOCKBA » 04 июн 2018, 22:18

Sergio Fisch писал(а):Источник цитаты But what Oser and my grandfather knew well was that the Jews couldn't go to university in Czarist Russia. They should convert or stay at home.
There is almost always a combination of fact and later-time legend in these family tales, and sometimes it is important to separate the two for a more efficient search. Universities in Russia were semi-open to the Jews (with quotas, limitations, and tuition costs). In my family, only my great-grandfather graduated from a university in the Czarist times. But lists of students of all major Russian universities, even in the XIX century, have large numbers of Jews.
Many school applications to Russian universities, even rejected ones, are preserved in the archives, and sometimes one can find extensive genealogy details in these applications.
Harvard wasn't particularly famous before WWI, especially among Jews, but as I just learned, Harvard didn't start limiting Jewish admissions until about 1922 (when 21% of its students were Jewish). But among the Jewish immigrants, other colleges were much more famous (in New York's, Hunter and City colleges were majority-Jewish, Columbia University was very popular, and Cooper Union was REALLY famous because it offered free tuition; my great grand uncle studied at Cooper Union). It is possible that your ancestor was trying to go to Columbia, and his wish was fulfilled later when his descendant went to Harvard...
Гоникберг (Могилев-Подольский, Ушицкий уезд, и повсюду), Прусс, Черницкий(Городок Витебской), Пальман (Витебск), Богин, Рудерман (Минск), Лапицкий (Копысь, Киев)

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#19 Сообщение Helen V. » 04 июн 2018, 23:13

Давайте предположим, что потомки Ошера Фиша из колонии Доброе существуют, и попробуем их найти.
Вот две анкеты, заполненные родственниками Фиш на сайте Ядвашем. Можно попробовать с ними связаться (они в Израиле).
Zyusya Fish was born in Dobroye, Ukraine (USSR) in 1894 to Avrum and Genya. He was a bookeeper and married to Basheva. Prior to WWII he lived in Dobroye, Ukraine (USSR). During the war he was in Nikolayev, Ukraine (USSR).
Zyusya was murdered in the Shoah.
This information is based on a Page of Testimony (displayed here) submitted by his nephew, Sara Iunovitz
Ядвашем Фиш из колонии Доброе.jpg


Khaia Perman nee Fish was born in Dobroye, Ukraine (USSR) in 1888 to Avrum and Genya. She was a housewife and married to Nukhem. Prior to WWII she lived in Dobroye, Ukraine (USSR). During the war she was in Dobroye, Ukraine (USSR).
Khaia was murdered in the Shoah.
This information is based on a Page of Testimony (displayed here) submitted by her niece, Sara Iunovitz, Raisa Fish
Ядвашем Фиш из колонии Доброе (2).jpg

Потомок Перманов из Новополтавки, если я не ошибаюсь, присутствует на этом форуме - Вадимт.
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История - "Е.П.Пешкова. Помощь политическим заключенным" ф.8409 ГА РФ

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#20 Сообщение Helen V. » 04 июн 2018, 23:26

вот такой человек обнаруживается на сайте министерства обороны:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/memoria ... 26page%3D1

Фиш Исаак Ушерович
красноармеец
Дата рождения __.__.1910
Дата и место призыва Николаевский РВК, Украинская ССР, Николаевская обл., Николаевский р-н
Последнее место службы 182 азсп ( 182 азсп )
Дата выбытия 07.10.1941
Причина выбытия пропал без вести
Источник информации ЦАМО
Номер фонда ист. информации 58
Номер описи ист. информации 818883
Номер дела ист. информации 1003

Ушер вполне может быть тем самым Ошером, который
Sergio Fisch писал(а):Источник цитаты Oser Fisch and his second wife died of cold and hunger, in the most complete inclemency. Eight months before the Revolution, approximately. I will explain why briefly.


Есть на военном сайте и
Фиш Ефим Иосифович
красноармеец
Дата рождения __.__.1912
Место рождения Украинская ССР, Николаевская обл., Баштанский р-н, с. Доброе
Иосифович вполне может оказаться Ошеровичем или Ушеровичем в оригинальных документах.
Я думаю, что при небольшом усилии с нашей стороны потомков всех этих людей можно попытаться найти.
Последний раз редактировалось Helen V. 04 июн 2018, 23:35, всего редактировалось 2 раза.
Постоянные интересы:
География - Беларусь (Толочин и окрестности), Украина (Ефингар).
История - "Е.П.Пешкова. Помощь политическим заключенным" ф.8409 ГА РФ


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