POGULYAEV (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#101 MCB » 11 июл 2019, 18:02

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11 июл 2019, 17:41
I don't know if they are those people who you are looking for but there is matches.
how could it be anyone else, the match is perfect, names, ages, place of birth and residence, ethnic origins.

So Aleksei and Maria weren't divorced by 1941, as she seems to have applied for survivor spouse benefits. Why a biological child would be left with neighbors, yet continue to bear his birth name, is beyond me. It might have been a formal adoption and young Igor might have unofficially restored his original surname when taken from the streets in 1941, but it sounds so far fetched. The family which took care of him seems to have means and connections, but just leaving a child with good rich neighbors can't explain why the biological parents were cut off..

(And the story of Igor's schooling paints his childhood as far more privileged than normal. A kindergarten, in the 1930s! A specialized school with small classes and foreign language program! That's not how the toiling masses lived, I tell you. Perhaps the Kiev oldtimers can find you the special English school at Podol, or the Staro-Vedenski / Vedelsky lane, but one crucial thing you already got: grandfather's name in Novozybkov, and Alexei's year of birth)

PS: fill an online affidavit for the victims of the Nazis for Alexei at Yad Vashem now that you know his bio. And for you dad.
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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#102 mikev » 11 июл 2019, 18:14

As a guess the parents did not bother to do the things formally... they might have separated but not formally divorced, for example.

But it seems mighty odd to me that neither one wanted the kid!

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#103 MCB » 11 июл 2019, 18:23

mikev писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 18:14
But it seems mighty odd to me that neither one wanted the kid!
They might have believed that he was Kryukov's child, or his brother's... in those days before DNA. Or maybe the parents didn't totally disappear from the boy's life, but their memory was traumatic and disappeared??
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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#104 mikev » 11 июл 2019, 18:41

Probably hopeless to figure out,... in fact it would seem that the only question that can possibly be resolved in Kiev is just who was Krukov's wife.

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#105 Файнгольд Татьяна » 11 июл 2019, 18:52

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11 июл 2019, 17:34
Ok, on the same site there is form with information about Aleksei (in Russian this is full name of Alesha) Danilovich (his father is Danil or the same as jewish name Daniel) Pogulyaev.

So Aleksei Danilovich Pogulyaev was born in 1907 in Novozybkov. Was drafted to the army in september 1941 in Kiev.

Lived in Kiev Staro-Vedelskiy per. #3.
He went missing in 1941.

His wife Pilipchuk/Pylypchuk Maria (full version of Masha) Grigoryevna (her father was Grigoriy).

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/memoria ... 0%B5%D0%B9
пер.Старо-Веденский не гуглится.
На Подоле ул.ВВЕДЕНСКАЯ. До трамвая 12, следующего из и в Пущу, 5минут ходьбы.
http://oldkiev.ho.ua/vvedens/index.html
Здесь есть Введенский пер.
http://www.wedenska107.com/428664069
Історія Гімназіїї № 107 "Введенська" розпочинається з 1937 року,
з створення невеликої дерев`яної школи на вулиці Ратманській,
яка отримала назву загальноосвітній навчальний заклад школа № 107 Подільського району міста Києва.
http://www.podil19.org.ua/?cat=16
Недалеко від Контрактової площі до 1936 року функціонували школи: №19 (вулиця Покровська, тепер ліцей «Поділ» №100) і №20 (зараз тут Будинок дитячої творчості). Оскільки дітей у школі №20 було дуже багато, навчання проводилося у дві зміни.
Тому по вулиці Межигірській (колишня вул. І.Переца) було збудовано школу, яка почала працювати з 1936 року під №143.

Тоже рядом, очень близко.
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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#106 Noel » 11 июл 2019, 19:36

MOCKBA писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 18:23
mikev писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 18:14
But it seems mighty odd to me that neither one wanted the kid!
They might have believed that he was Kryukov's child, or his brother's... in those days before DNA. Or maybe the parents didn't totally disappear from the boy's life, but their memory was traumatic and disappeared??
I think it is more possible that boy was relate to Rosa than to Yakov Krukov.
Maybe he was on the streets after something happened with Rosa. Because Yakov is still alive in 1944.

So anyway, they should figuared out who was Rosa.

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#107 Joanna » 11 июл 2019, 19:50

Gosh, this is puzzling.
The biggest puzzle is that pilipchuck is the name my father came here with!
He must have chosen his mothers name!
Thank you all for your help.

In papers for Alosha are there any brothers?
We have DNA matches that i would love to connect with if they are relatives.

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#108 Joanna » 11 июл 2019, 19:51

I cannot thank you all enough

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#109 MCB » 11 июл 2019, 20:09

Noel писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 19:36
think it is more possible that boy was relate to Rosa than to Yakov Krukov.
Maybe he was on the streets after something happened with Rosa. Because Yakov is still alive in 1944.
If we 100% trust the story that Yakov had brother and sister with Jewish or at least "non-Russian" names Adam and Sura (the latter is definitely Jewish), then it's very hard to believe that he survived under the Nazi occupation in Kiev. There are a few examples of people surviving in hiding for years, including one in my Urims in Kiev, but they are exceedingly rare. Besides the Yakov Kryukov from Shevchenko village whom you found was a son of Nikita, and thus extremely unlikely to have been Jewish. This kind of a patronymic, Nikitovich, is almost unheard of among the Jewish people of the era. And he was born before the revolution in a relatively small village 100 km East of Buzuluk, a place where the Jews were categorically prohibited to reside in (even if they had any business there in the first place!) (There are dozens of Kryukov's in Buzuluk area in WWII area, although they generally lived in two villages much closer to Buzuluk)

So the name and surname and the neighborhood of the Krukov from the childhood memories all match, but there are 3 extremely improbable contradictions between the assumed Jewish ethnicity of the former, and the wartime fate, origins, and the patronymic of the latter.

One of the two things might explain it: either Sura was Rosa's sister rather than Yakov's, or we got a wrong Kryukov (the surname wasn't all that rare among the Slavs, with other 30 WWII records from Kiev alone, although a match of both the given name and the neighborhood is uncanny). Of course my hunch is that Rosa was a relative of the Pogulyaevs, and perished in Baby Yar, while her husband, an ethnic Russian, survived the Nazi occupation and was killed in action in 1945.

The fact that Igor either had all along - or made in 1946-1947 - some papers in the name of Pilipchuk is a real clincher! Maria was the only survivor of WWII, then...
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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#110 Joanna » 11 июл 2019, 20:28

I did not really think I would ever find out who my grandparents were.
It was his father that was jewish?
You have all solved a difficult family mystery.
Is there any way I can find out what happened to Maria?
Did Yakov and Alosha join the russian Army?
Where can i find information on Alosha family?
A mystery solved, but so many questions.
Where did his parents go?
The krukovs did not disappear?

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#111 Noel » 11 июл 2019, 20:31

Joanna писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 19:50
Gosh, this is puzzling.
The biggest puzzle is that pilipchuck is the name my father came here with!
He must have chosen his mothers name!
Thank you all for your help.

In papers for Alosha are there any brothers?
We have DNA matches that i would love to connect with if they are relatives.
No, there are just name of Alosha's wife and her address in 1946: Kiev, Livera st. #2 ap. 19. in document.

There is nothing about other relatives.

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#112 anno_nin » 11 июл 2019, 20:42

What about such idea (sounds fantastic, but still possible):
Alexey and Maria were killed in 1934. Somebody used their documents. Maybe a couple, who wanted to hide their origins. There were enough such people in Ukraine of 1932-1934.
In 1941 Alexey served in army as a solger. But he was a military in 1932. And has friends, also served in the Red Army. Interesting to find descendants of this couple and compare the DNA.
About Rosa and Yaakov. It happened in winter, when Germans occupied Kiev?
One of the variants: Rosa was captured as a jew. Yaakov tried to save her. It took several days. Finally, when Yaakov (with or without Rosa) returned home, Igor disappeared.
------
More real: try to find in Novozybkov Daniel Pogulyaev. Joanna, You saw similar name between Your matches?

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#113 Joanna » 11 июл 2019, 20:51

i have had some letters translated from a possible relative.
Through ancestry.
They are to Vasily Danilovich Pogulyaev.
Born 1893
Could this be alosha brother?

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#114 mikev » 11 июл 2019, 21:02

anno_nin писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 20:42
Alexey and Maria were killed in 1934
Anything is possible but this is a bit too outlandish for me. Let's assume for now that nothing at all happened in 1934 except for a strange change within the family.

Per RTR, there are Novozybkov censuses for 1882;1888;1903;1910. I'm guessing this means family lists, so why not look at them?

Also.... we have Sura and Adam. Sura sounds Jewish... but Adam is really not too common among either Russians or Jews.

Finally ... we think Maria survived the war. Likely retained the husband's name. We think this was a well-to-do family in 1930s. A Party member, perhaps?

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#115 mikev » 11 июл 2019, 21:04

Joanna писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 20:51
i have had some letters translated from a possible relative.
Through ancestry.
They are to Vasily Danilovich Pogulyaev.
Born 1893
Could this be alosha brother?
Maybe yes, maybe no. The pattern with Jews is repeated names within families. Could be a 3rd cousin too.

BUT: Daniel is not a common name, this does argue for relative too.

You want to see Novozybkov family lists .. with luck you will get a family tree from them.

PS> Signatures (F/O/D) are 127/5/1567;127/14/3544,4121,4252,4255,4259

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#116 MCB » 11 июл 2019, 21:07

mikev писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 21:02
We think this was a well-to-do family in 1930s. A Party member, perhaps?
not in 1945, but they would have expelled him for staying under Nazi occupation
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#117 mikev » 11 июл 2019, 21:09

I was talking about Maria Popelyav. We don't know if she was under occupation... it is still interesting to find out what happened to her later, I think?
And we have her maiden name too....

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#118 Noel » 11 июл 2019, 21:13

Joanna писал(а):
11 июл 2019, 20:51
i have had some letters translated from a possible relative.
Through ancestry.
They are to Vasily Danilovich Pogulyaev.
Born 1893
Could this be alosha brother?
It is possible. Patronomic name matches.

Also here is information about Zinoviy Danilovych Pogulyaev from Novozybkov (was born in 1906).
His wife Pogulyaeva D.G. lived in Novozybkov on Sovetskaya st. 78.
He also could be a brother of Alosha.

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/memoria ... 26page%3D1
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#119 Файнгольд Татьяна » 11 июл 2019, 21:19

Улица, на которой в 1945г.жила Пилипчук Мария в документе наз. ул.Ливера.
Ул.Ливера - это Андреевский спуск. номер дома соотв. месту на Подоле.
ФАЙНГОЛЬД

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Pogulyaev (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

#120 Joanna » 11 июл 2019, 22:49

Thank you all for the time you have spent looking. You are amazing.
Now what to tell my father?
He is 90 years old, I do not want him to think his parents did not want him.
I am going to say that they were posted away with army. He was left with aunt to be looked after.
I hope this is the right thing to do.
I will continue with my search.
I would like to connect with family of Moshe Meir Pugliev and Nokhim and Nathan Pogulyaev if I can find the connection.
I already correspond with Vasil Danilovich Pogulyaev grandson, he is also called Daniel.
Thanks again from myself and my father. Who is now called Daniel

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